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“The GOP Blocking Of Medicaid Expansion”: The Huge Obamacare Story You Aren’t Reading About That Could Help Even More People

Today it’s a few hundred thousand people. By next year, it will be at least a few million. Their health insurance status is changing dramatically: What they have in 2014 and beyond will look nothing like what they had in 2013 and before. For many of these people, the difference will be hundreds or even thousands of dollars a year. In a few cases, it may be the difference between life and death.

You probably think I’m talking about the people getting cancellation notices about their private insurance policies. I’m not. I’m talking about the people getting Medicaid. Both stories are consequences of the Affordable Care Act. But one is getting way, way more attention than the other.

It’s no mystery why. Stories of people losing something are more compelling than stories of people gaining something. The policy cancellation story is also newsier, because fewer people expected it to happen. Obamacare’s expansion of Medicaid was something the advocates of reform advertised. Reform’s effect on people with skimpy or medically underwritten insurance policies they liked was something that few advocates, including the president, even acknowledged. Had Obama pointed out, all along, that some people might lose existing plans or pay more for coverage in 2014, it would seem a lot less shocking.

But there is also a class element to the way this debate has evolved. By and large, the people receiving those cancellation notices and facing large premium increases are at least reasonably affluent. They’re not necessarily rich, particularly if they live in higher cost areas of the country. Many of them sweat monthly bills just like most of the country does. But, by definition, they don’t qualify for huge subsidies that would offset premium increases mostly or completely. By contrast, the people getting Medicaid are poor. They have to be, because it’s the only way to sign up for the program. And as political scientists have shown, the poor don’t command the same kind of attention from politicians that the middle class—and particularly the upper middle class—does.

And this fact, I suspect, is also magnifying the impact of those cancellation letters. The best estimates suggest that 12 to 15 million people currently buy coverage on their own—i.e, in what’s known as the non-group market. It appears that only a fraction of them will get to keep their current policies. The rest will end up having to get new coverage, or updated versions of their old coverage, that offers greater benefits and/or is available to everybody, regardless of pre-existing condition. That will drive up the price of insurance.

But when you take into account the subsidies, which for many people will knock the price of insurance right back down, and the number of people who would gladly pay more for insurance that offers real protection from financial shock, the number of people who truly end up feeling worse off ends up a lot smaller than 12 or 15 million. And even those people will end up with good health insurance, though they’ll be paying more for it and may not want it.

Meanwhile, the best available projections suggest that 13 million people will eventually sign up for Medicaid. That’s a much larger number of people, most of whom had no insurance—none—before. That doesn’t even include more than ten million presently uninsured people expected to get insurance through employers and the new marketplaces, assuming all of the websites start working better, or the millions of seniors getting extra help with their prescrpition drugs.

Of course, the story of the Medicaid expansion is also one of suffering. But that’s because Republicans governors and lawmakers are blocking expansion of Medicaid in their states. About 5 million people who would be eligible for Medicaid under Obamacare’s new guidelines won’t be getting it. Here’s a mental exercise. How many stories have cable news and the networks run about people with private insurance getting cancellation notices? And how many have they run about people who would be getting Medicaid if only their state lawmakers would stop blocking expansion?

You can find examples. My colleague Alec MacGillis has waged a lonely crusade to remind people about this situation. The New York Times had a terrific front-page story on this in early October. In the Washington Post, Ruth Marcus on Friday wrote about Paul Tumulty, in Texas, who can’t get insurance because Governor Rick Perry has blocked that state’s Medicaid expansion. Tumulty, who is the brother of Post staff writer Karen, has kidney disease. Wiithout Medicaid he can’t get comprehensive coverage, because, as Karen put it, “he is, paradoxically, too poor for subsidies.”

But these articles are the exception more than the rule. Obama tried to draw attention to the issue last week, when he visited Texas. But the trip didn’t generate much in the way of new coverage of Medicaid.

Should the president have been more candid about the impact his plan would have on people buying their own coverage? Yes. Should we pay attention to those people, particularly when they must now pay more for equivalent coverage? Definitely. Should this put extra pressure on the administration and some states to fix their websites? You bet. But that’s not the only Obamacare news right now. The law is making life better for a great many people—and would help even more if only Republican lawmakers would relent. Those stories need attention, too.

 

By: Jonathan Cohn, the New Republic, November 10, 2013

November 12, 2013 Posted by | Affordable Care Act, Obamacare | , , , , , , , | 1 Comment

“Bringing Actual Facts To Bear”: The Truth Is, Obamacare Is Working

The Obamacare website might still not be working, but journalists are. All across the country, as Republicans try to highlight tragic tales of Americans losing their current health insurance and allegedly stuck with more expensive options, journalists are coming to the rescue. In case after case, journalists investigated these stories and called the policyholders and combed the insurance exchange websites to bring actual facts to bear in our public debate about Obamacare.

Here are just some of the mythical stories journalists have helped dispel — and the lessons we can learn from them about the reality of the Affordable Care Act:

Deborah Cavallaro was making the rounds on television complaining about how her current insurance plan was canceled under Obamacare. So Los Angeles Times columnist Michael Hiltzik talked to her. Her current plan cost $293 per month but had a deductible of $5,000 per year and out-of-pocket annual limits of $8,500. Also, the current plan covered just two doctor’s visits per year.

But in the California insurance exchange, which Hiltzik helped Cavallaro check, she could get a “silver” plan for $333 per month — $40 more than she’s currently paying. But the new plan has only a $2,000 deductible and maximum out-of-pocket expenses at $6,350. Plus all doctor visits would be covered. Hiltzik writes, “Is that better than her current plan? Yes, by a mile.”

Dianne Barrette also popped up on television on a CBS news report in which she lamented that her $54-per-month insurance plan had been canceled under Obamacare. But Nancy Metcalf at Consumer Reports investigated Barrette’s story and found that her current policy was a “textbook example of a junk plan that isn’t real health insurance at all.” According to Metcalf, if Barrette had ever tried to use her insurance for anything more than a sporadic doctor’s visit, “she would have ended up with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical debt.”

The plan, for instance, only pays for hospitalization in cases of “complications of pregnancy.” Instead, Metcalf found that Barrette could get a “silver” plan in the state insurance exchange for $165 per month that would actually cover Barrette in the case of any sort of serious or even moderate illness. Which is the very definition of insurance, isn’t it?

Edie Littlefield Sundby, a stage-four gallbladder cancer survivor, published an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal blaming the Affordable Care Act for her canceled insurance policy. In her essay, Littlefield wrote that because of Obamacare, “I have been forced to give up a world-class health plan.” But, according to Igor Volsky of Think Progress, Sundby’s insurer, United Healthcare, “dropped her coverage because they’ve struggled to compete in California’s individual health care market for years and didn’t want to pay for sicker patients like Sundby.”

Earlier this year, United, which has publicly supported the Affordable Care Act, announced that it would pull out of the individual market in California. A company representative said it withdrew because its individual plans have never had a huge presence in the state. According to United, and in compliance with state law, the company won’t be able to re-enter the California individual market until 2017.

By then though, competitors will get stuck with sicker patients like Sundby signing up in the first wave of Obamacare. This means that companies like United can cover cheaper patients if it decides to go back to the California individual insurance market.

According to a report by Dylan Scott at Talking Points Memo, a Seattle woman named Donna received a cancellation letter from her insurance company regarding her current plan. The letter steered Donna and her family into a more expensive option and said, “If you’re happy with this plan, do nothing.” The letter made no mention of the Washington State insurance exchange, where Donna could find plenty of other more affordable choices, because the company wanted a convenient excuse to jack up Donna’s rates.

Had Donna “done nothing,” she would have ended up spending about $1,000 more per month on insurance than the cost of insurance she ultimately chose through the Obamacare exchange. In fact, the practice of trying to mislead customers has become so widespread that Washington state regulators issued a consumer alert to customers.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Republicans who have been desperate from the very beginning to destroy Obamacare at any cost, regardless of facts or the urgent health care crisis facing America, will continue to dig up stories of people supposedly harmed by the law. And journalists will hopefully continue to investigate these allegations, helping us all sort fact from fiction.

In the meantime, there’s a side benefit to all this: If you are one of the small fraction of Americans who currently relies on the individual insurance market and has seen your current policy canceled, call a journalist — like one of those in the stories above. Reporters all across the country are hungry for real-life stories about how Obamacare is working.

Plus, most reporters have access to high-speed Internet. If you can’t get through to the Obamacare exchange site, there’s a journalist standing by willing to help you navigate the exchange options and explore your pros and cons in terms of costs and benefits. The website might still be glitchy, but old-fashioned shoe-leather reporting is as reliable as ever.

 

By: Sally Kohn, Special To CNN, November 8, 2013

November 10, 2013 Posted by | Affordable Care Act, Obamacare | , , , , , , , | 2 Comments

“What Really Matters”: Don’t Knock Obamacare Until You Try It

There has been a steady drumbeat of news stories about health insurance companies informing customers that their policies will be dropped or that they will face steep rate increases due to requirements of the Affordable Care Act.

This has opened the door to fair criticisms that President Obama wrongly stated that people would be able to keep their current insurance policies if they are happy with them, as this isn’t necessarily the case. However, the real question for individuals facing rate hikes or dropped coverage is whether there are insurance options provided through the exchanges, mandated by the new law, that these people would actual prefer, thanks to some combination of lower prices and more generous benefits. Obamacare might cause some to lose their current policy, but it also might provide them with options they would prefer. That is what really matters.

People should remember that the program provides subsidies for lower income individuals and families. At least in states that have accepted the very generous federal contribution, Obamacare also expands access to Medicaid. For many people who currently lack insurance, a group of people who tend to be poorer, Obamacare insurance policies will be free or relatively cheap.

The initial implementation of Obamacare has not gone smoothly. The key problem is website difficulties faced by people who are attempting to see just how much a plan will cost them, and whose attempts to actually sign up for a policy have been thwarted. We will see if these problems are fixed in a timely fashion, and whether other serious problems crop up.

But the program, as designed, is intended to lower prices for the vast majority of people on the individual insurance market, as well as to open it up to people who previously have been denied affordable coverage because of pre-existing medical conditions. Optimistically, increased competition could even lower prices for employer-based health plans.

Admittedly, such optimistic predictions might not come to pass. Over the next several months we will get a better idea of how many people manage to enroll, whether their coverage is adequate, and whether their overall medical costs, including premiums and out of pocket costs, fall. We might ultimately declare Obamacare a failure, and if that happens we should figure out a better way to expand access to affordable health insurance and care.

Despite the rhetoric from many conservatives, Obamacare isn’t the way most self-described liberals would reform our health care system. It is needlessly complicated, not guaranteed to reduce overall medical costs significantly and its subsidies, while significant, are too stingy. People with lower middle class incomes will still likely find the premiums to be a budgetary strain. At the very least, liberals would have included a government run “public option,” a Medicare-like program that would have competed with the private insurance.

But problems aside, people who are currently navigating the private insurance market –both those without health insurance currently and those who might be receiving scary policy and price change letters from their current insurance companies — should make sure to see just what their Obamacare options are. They might be pleasantly surprised.

 

By: Duncan Black, USA Today, November 5, 2013

November 8, 2013 Posted by | Affordable Care Act, Obamacare | , , , , , , , | 3 Comments

“Obstructing Obamacare Navigators”: The Republican Suppression Syndrome Continues

On August 15th, Jodi Ray, a project director at Florida Covering Kids and Families, a University of South Florida program that works to get uninsured children access to health care, won a federal grant to hire ninety people as health-care “navigators”: workers who will help applicants apply for insurance through the exchanges set up as part of the Affordable Care Act. In states that declined to set up their own exchanges, like Florida, the Department of Health and Human Services awarded funding worth sixty-seven million dollars for outreach efforts to help the uninsured enroll through the federal marketplace. Nearly four million people in Florida are uninsured—the third highest figure in the country—and Ray had six weeks to recruit staff from community-service groups in sixty-four counties across the state, and guide new hires through twenty hours of online federal training attached to her grant.

“But our navigators don’t only have to comply with federal requirements for the training,” Ray said. “We have state requirements that we have to comply with, too.” Last spring, the Florida legislature, apparently concerned that swindlers would land jobs as health-care experts with access to Social Security numbers and tax information, decided that the navigators should undergo fingerprinting and criminal background checks, and barred them from visiting state-run health clinics. Ray preferred not to comment on what the advocacy group Healthcare For America Now calls “navigator-suppression measures.” She only said, “I’m keeping my head down, the noise out, and focusing on what we are supposed to be doing.”

After the government shutdown ended, attention shifted to the blips and seizures bedevilling the federal marketplace’s Web site, healthcare.gov. Thirty-four states, all but seven of them Republican-controlled, chose not to set up their own exchanges, leaving hundreds of millions of dollars in outreach funding on the table, and forcing their residents onto the federally-operated Web site at the center of the current uproar. Twenty-one of those states are also expected to refuse nearly three hundred billion dollars in federal funding to expand Medicaid coverage over the next decade, which would have extended care to more than six million people; a majority of those excluded will likely be African-Americans and single mothers. To compound the effects of their recalcitrance, conservative governors, state legislators, and members of Congress have also passed navigator-suppression measures in thirteen states—Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Maine, Missouri, Montana, Ohio, Tennessee, Texas, and Wisconsin—home to seventeen million people without insurance who are eligible for coverage under the A.C.A.

Two weeks after Ray received her grant, she was notified by the House Energy and Commerce Committee that she would have to participate in a phone interview with the committee’s staff in September; she was also asked to give written answers to half a dozen questions from the committee and provide “all documentation and communication related to your Navigator grant.” Similar notifications were sent to navigator offices in eleven of the most underinsured states in which residents will need to use the federal health-care exhange—including Texas, Florida, and Georgia, home to about a quarter of the nation’s uninsured. Representative Henry Waxman, a Democrat from California, protested, in an open letter to the committee’s chairman, Michigan Republican Fred Upton, that the requests appeared “to have been sent solely to divert the resources of small, local community groups, just as they are needed to help with the new health care law.”

On September 18th, Darrell Issa, the Republican chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, released a report that singled out Florida as the site of “numerous reports of scam artists posing as navigators and Assisters to take advantage of people’s confusion about ObamaCare.” On October 2nd, Fox News aired footage of volunteers for Get Covered America, a non-profit advocacy campaign, going door-to-door in a Miami suburb to distribute flyers about the new insurance marketplace—but wrongly identified them as federally-funded navigators, giving the impression that these “navigators” were hawking plans like pushy insurance salesmen. Upton linked to the report on his Web site. Ray, who still spends much of her time getting new navigators licensed while the federal government fixes the Web site’s glitches, was reticent about discussing the maelstrom of controversy. “It’s been busy,” she said.

As these tactics jam up early efforts in many states, they also amplify the contrast with successful rollouts in states that have wholeheartedly embraced the new law, like Colorado, Connecticut, New York, Kentucky, and Washington.

Elisabeth Benjamin, who leads New York’s largest team of navigators at the Community Service Society, spent much her early career improving health-care capacity in developing countries like India, Tunisia, and postwar Iraq—where, she said, people often told her, “I don’t understand why you’re in our country. You have a lot of problems with health care and poor people in your country.” Back home, she started a health-law unit at the Legal Aid Society to assist low-income New Yorkers with unforgiving medical bills. In 2008, she unveiled an insurance ombudsman program at C.S.S. to help people at every income level understand their options for medical coverage. “If you need a loaf of bread, it’s a buck,” she said, explaining health care’s central distinction from other forms of assistance. “If you need a transplant, it’s five hundred thousand dollars.”

Around the same time Benjamin was starting her program, Eliot Spitzer, then the governor of New York, proposed statewide health-care reform similar to the law Massachusetts had passed four years earlier. Vermont’s legislature had expanded coverage, and Arnold Schwarzenegger had made national news by calling for a similar program in California. Benjamin joined an affordable-health-care advocacy campaign, Healthcare for All New York, and testified before the New York State Legislature. “We just assumed there would be a state-by-state movement to extend coverage,” Benjamin said. But two years later, the Obama Administration, with the help of a Democrat-controlled House and Senate, passed the Affordable Care Act. New York’s governor, Andrew Cuomo, along with the state legislature in Albany, accepted the expansion of Medicaid, and the state established its own online exchange. After the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of Obamacare, in June, 2012, Cuomo released a statement that said, “We look forward to continuing to work together with the Obama administration to ensure accessible, quality care for all New Yorkers.”

That spirit of coöperation has been integral to New York’s early success. Elisabeth Benjamin, in New York, and Jodi Ray, in Florida, offer exactly the same services to people who were previously unable to obtain medical coverage: they help determine voucher amounts, parse available options, and submit applications online, over the phone, or through the mail. But because New York set up its own exchange, the state received twenty-seven million dollars to fund its navigators, while Florida has just eight million dollars for outreach. Benjamin, who is herself a trained navigator, conceded that there were glitches on New York’s Web site the first week, but said that most of them have been resolved. In the second week, she helped enroll a woman who had worked as a home-health-care aid for twenty years, earning around twenty-four thousand dollars annually. Home health care “has to be the hardest job in America—so physically taxing and emotionally draining,” Benjamin said. “And we don’t give them health coverage. Are you kidding me? They’re part of the health-care system.” Benjamin helped find a plan for the woman that costs seventy-two dollars a month. “I was crying,” Benjamin said. “That’s what it’s all about.”

For the A.C.A. to succeed in its goal of providing coverage for all citizens at an overall reduction in cost, a critical mass of people—old and young, sick and healthy—will need to participate in the insurance exchanges. As of October 23rd, New York had enrolled thirty-seven thousand people, more than twice the goal set by H.H.S. for the entire month of October. Florida won’t know how many people have enrolled until H.H.S. releases its figures sometime in November. The Congressional Budget Office has estimated that a total of seven million people nationwide could enroll in the first year. But Dr. Kavita Patel, a health-care-reform expert at the Brookings Institution, and a former policy advisor in the Obama Administration, told me, “If by the end of 2014 there are three million people enrolled, that would be a success.” The politicians who are currently bemoaning the looming failure of Obamacare might consider doing more to help navigators like Jodi Ray make it work.

 

By: Rob Fischer, The New Yorker, November 1, 2013

November 6, 2013 Posted by | Affordable Care Act, GOP, Republicans | , , , , , , | Leave a comment

“Happiness Today, Bankruptcy Tomorrow”: Why Letting Everyone Keep Their Health-Care Plan Is A Terrible Idea

The current furor over President Obama’s broken “keep your plan” promise confusingly melds together two very different claims. The first is a simple question of accuracy and honesty: Obama made a promise about his legislation, the promise has not come true, and a certain level of abuse is deserved. (Karl Rove huffs, “This is a serious breach of trust with the American people.” And you know that Karl Rove takes breaches of presidential trust with the utmost seriousness.)

The justifiable scrutiny of Obama’s veracity has melded seamlessly into a second and very different claim: That Obama’s broken promise is not merely a violation of trust, a fair enough charge, but an act of unfairness to those who have lost their plans.

The health-care debate has suddenly come to focus almost obsessively on the alleged victims of Obamacare, who have lost their cheap individual insurance. Here’s Matthew Fleischer mourning the loss of his bare-bones plan in the Los Angeles Times; here’s David Frum doing the same for the Daily Beast. Mary Landrieu, a vulnerable red-state Democrat, is introducing legislation to ensure that nobody can lose their individual health-care plan.

The idea underlying this notion, while facially appealing, is in fact misguided and morally perverse. No decent health-care reform can keep in place every currently existing private plan.

The New York Times has a helpful graphic displaying the structure of the insurance market:

The left and top-right squares show the four fifths of Americans who get coverage through the government. Those on the left who get covered through their employer get tax-subsidized insurance, and those in the top right get insured by the government directly. Obamacare leaves that structure in place (though it has a series of mechanisms designed to hold down their cost inflation).

The main coverage provisions affect the people in the bottom right quadrant. Most of that quadrant lacks any insurance at all, which points to the dysfunctionality of buying individual insurance before Obamacare. Some of them — 5 percent of the population — have a health-insurance plan. Health-care reforms have always thought of the people within that segment as being essentially the same group of people. Those are mainly healthy, non-poor people who have been skimmed out of the insurance pool, leaving behind those too poor, or too likely to need medical care.

Obamacare is designed to pool the bottom-right quadrant into risk pools, somewhat like the people on the left and the upper right. The poorest of the uninsured are eligible for Medicaid, though a Republican Supreme Court and Republican state governments collectively decided to leave them uninsured. The rest have coverage through the new health exchanges. By design, those exchanges prevent insurers from skimming out the healthy and excluding the sick. Some of the 5 percenters will get less expensive health care, mainly because they qualify for tax credits. Others think they will have to pay higher costs but, upon inspection, will be getting cheaper coverage on the exchanges.

But some other portion — an as-yet-undefined fraction of the 5 percent — will actually be paying higher insurance premiums in the exchanges, and their complaints are echoing across the land. Should we feel concerned for their plight? No, we should not, for three reasons.

First, a great many of the people who are happy with their individual health-insurance plan are happy only because they are unaware of its actual value. This sounds patronizing, but it also happens to be demonstrably true. Even highly educated consumers within this market were frequently snookered by insurance plans that turned out to leave them exposed to surprise costs — they incur a sudden high medical cost and discover their plan does not actually cover them. The fine print is a game of wits between insurer and customer that the insurer always wins. A large share of the people telling us now they’re happy with their individual insurance simply haven’t been exposed to a negative surprise. The handful of reporters who closely followed the individual-insurance market before last week are all watching the eulogies for the lost individual plans and having their brains explode.

Second, it is true that some people actually are getting decent individual health insurance, and have to pay more under Obamacare. Before, insurers could charge them a rate based on their individual likelihood of needing medical care, and some people are lucky enough to present a very low actuarial health risk. Now those people will have to pay a rate averaging in the cost of others who are less medically fortunate.

Have those healthy 5 percenters who do have decent insurance “lost” under Obamacare? In the very immediate sense, yes. That is what Obamacare advocate Jon Gruber is getting at when he concedes that 3 percent of Americans will be worse off under the new law. They’ll be paying higher rates in 2014 than they would have.

Yet this takes an oddly narrow view of their self-interest. You may pose a low actuarial risk today, but you cannot be certain your luck will continue for the rest of your life (or until you qualify for Medicare). Even people living the healthiest lifestyles suffer illnesses and accidents, or marry people who have a uterus. Those who are paying a higher rate are getting something for their money: a guarantee that some future misfortune won’t lock them out of the market. You might call such a guarantee “insurance.”

So some of the 5 percenters are wrong, some of them are short-sighted, but they have identified a basic moral principle: Why is it fair to steal from them, the healthy, and give to others, who are sick? If they have truly mastered the fine print of the individual insurance market and want to gamble on remaining a good actuarial risk forever, should they be permitted to keep their winnings? Having drilled down through the practical arguments, here we get to the final reason, the moral bedrock of the issue.

Their objection has an intuitive, libertarian appeal that obscures the fact that the vast majority of insured Americans already submit to this form of redistribution. Indeed, they’re submitting to a much more stringent form of this redistribution. The exchanges are allowed to charge older people up to three times the premium they charge the young. But in the employer system, they’re not allowed to charge older people any higher rate at all. The shift from healthy to sick in the employer insurance pool is massive. Adrianna McIntyre, a 24-year-old wonk prodigy, notes that her employer-based coverage charges her more than three times the rate she could get in the new exchanges.

People accept this transfer from the healthy to the sick because it is the only way to make medical care affordable to the sick. This is a simple mathematical truism. If your medical care costs more than you can afford to pay, the difference must be borne by those whose medical care costs less than they can afford to pay. There are any number of ways to handle this transfer. One is taxes, and Obamacare does use taxes to make insurance more affordable for many of its recipients. There are other potential methods — conservatives like to tout high-risk pools, at least in the abstract — but none escape the basic math.

The healthy 5 percenters do recognize that Obamacare carries out this transfer. Fleischer complains he is “being taken advantage of.” Frum, writing in the same spirit, complains that he must pay $200 more now that insurers can no longer reward him for his excellent health:

That $200 a month differential seems to be the cost of community rating: I had to answer a bunch of questions about my health before qualifying for my prior plan; the new plan will be issued, no questions asked. Presumably somewhere there is a D.C. resident who smokes or who has some pre-existing condition who will receive a corresponding $200 a month windfall.

The complainers are right. But they won’t quite face up to the full implications of their complaint. If you believe the healthy are entitled to keep the financial benefits of their good health, then you must also believe the sick must be denied medical care. Should that principle be the foundation of our health-care system?

 

By: Jonathan Chait, New York Magazine, November 1, 2013

November 4, 2013 Posted by | Affordable Care Act, Health Insurance Companies, Obamacare | , , , , , , | Leave a comment